By Pam Victor
[“Geeking Out with…” is a series of super improv-geeky interviews
with well-known, highly experienced improvisers.
In Part One of Geeking Out with…Craig Cackowski, we talked about Craig’s early
history and influences in improvisation. In this discussion, we get really,
superduper geeky in the most tantalizingly, hardcore way.
If you’re in L.A., you can see Craig Cackowski perform with Rich Talarico and Bob Dassie in Dasariski, a group which, according to the webpage, “is known for their ‘slow play’ style of longform improvisation, taking a single audience suggestion and creating a half-hour to hour-long piece of theater, focusing on creating believable characters and relationships, eschewing the cheap joke for the long-term payoff.”
See?
Tantalizing. But you ain’t see nothin’ yet. Strap in and enjoy…
* * *
PAM: So when we left off, we were launching onto your mantra, "Choose
to know." My notes from my week with you at iO's summer intensive say “Choose to know.
Choose to know. Choose to know” all over them! Can you explain that concept, so
we developing improvisers can begin to understand it in our bones?
Cackowski with kitten [Photo courtesy of Craig Cackowski] |
CRAIG: It was something we first discovered when we were taping and transcribing our Dasariski
shows. We found that when we were improvising well, we were literally saying
the phrase "I know!" a lot. So I adopted it into an exercise for my
classes, basically replacing "Yes, and…" with "I know."
Nothing too fancy, but it seems to make a huge difference. Because when people
were saying "Yes, and…" I was getting a lot of scenes like:
"We need to clean the bathroom."
"Yes, and…we need to clean the
kitchen too.”
Well, now you've just doubled your
workload! You needed to clean one room and now you need to clean two! So it can
amount to just listing things, or going on tangents of separate ideas. “I know”
forces you to investigate what is already there and go deeper into it.
I push my students to assume
familiarity with everything that is happening. It may be new to the improvisor,
but the character already knows EVERYTHING.
PAM: Can you give me an example
you've seen or performed when "Choose to know" was employed well?
CRAIG: My favorite
example was from an old Dasariski
show that was set in Canada. At one point, I said, "Have you seen Downtown
Saskatoon lately?"
The gentlemen of Dasariski [Photo courtesy of Craig Cackowski] |
And Rich Talarico said,
"That's my favorite show. I hope Edgar O' Grady wins the Blammy."
So we went from me just talking
about the city Saskatoon to him deciding that it was a TV show that Edgar O'
Grady was the star of it, and that the Blammy was the Canadian equivalent of
the Emmy. This led to an entire show where we were just making things up about
Canadian culture. Instead of 911, they dial 866, etc.
PAM: Ha! That's great. I am SO
looking forward to seeing you and Mr. Talarico at the Detroit Improv Festival!
Similar
to what you said a moment ago, I've heard you say, “The character doesn't have
to know everything that the writer knows. You don't have to state the subtext.”
I want to understand that idea better.
CRAIG: In life, truth
is the last resort. We say anything else to avoid saying how we really feel.
But in improv scenes, people immediately blurt out their subtext and say how
they feel about other characters. That's the writer's voice talking, not the character's.
Once people's real feeling are out on the table, there's no more tension and
subtlety to play, and it leads to negotiation and discussions of people's
relationships - and nothing is less interesting.
Trust that because you're doing
comedy, every relationship you will display is a dysfunctional one. But the
characters don't have to realize the dysfunction or talk about it. It's your
job as an improvisor to SHOW me dysfunction through action, and not to fix
dysfunction through negotiation.
PAM: I really am working on
this subtle distinction right now, so this is very interesting. How do you
balance this with “calling out the deal” of the scene. Our iO teacher Lyndsay Hailey also refers to "shooting
the grandma," if that means anything to you. I think she's talking about not beating around the bush, just talking about killing grandma when you should
up ‘n shoot the bitch. But I like the idea of incorporating this complexity
you're talking about while at the same time “shooting the grandma.” (Though maybe these are two different matters...)
CRAIG: Well, shooting
grandma is GOOD, because it's action. Action is always good. I'd have to hear
Lyndsay explaining her own metaphor; I don't want to garble it. But I do hate
to see improvisors playing coy when they know something needs to happen. And I
do think games or deals can be called out. Once. Now we know what we're playing
with. But people bring up the problem and then want to keep discussing it and
negotiating it, rather than SHOW it to the audience through action.
In a Harold scene, that action
might be more gamey, like heightening for heightening's sake. Or in a TJ and Dave
show, an ACTION might be waiting for the doctor to see you. It doesn't sound
like what we think of as action, but it's still a recognizably human routine
that you can play. If we know who their characters are and what their
relationship is, then the laughs come from, How does Dave handle the waiting
room as opposed to how TJ handles it? What do they talk about? What objects do
they interact with? How do they engage the receptionist? What are their
neuroses? I think this is cool, because they can be sitting still the whole
time, but still playing an ACTION.
PAM: I was dealing with
something related to this issue just yesterday. My team really is deep into
exploring very honest, character-based work, à la TJ
& Dave who are my major influence
right now. But we were driving to a short-form show, which was going to be very
gamey, by design, and "louder, faster, funnier" in style. I know
there is a way to blend both these skills sets, but I'm not able to verbalize
it well yet.
CRAIG: It's adjusting
to the sprint vs. the marathon. They're both running, but they utilize
different sets of muscles.
PAM: Is there any way of doing
a short-form show that would do justice to the spirit of the work of TJ
& Dave?
CRAIG: I view the
first third of any scene or show as "Doing the work." Once you've
done the work, then you can play. In an hour-long show, the first 20 minutes is
the work. If you do the work, then everything should get easier as the show
progresses.
In a three-minute scene, the first
minute is the work, so you've got to get “who, what, where” out there, you've
got to establish patterns of behavior that you can go back to, you've got to
say yes to action. So the process is the same, but the pace is different.
But can you do a three-minute short-form
scene beginning with a minute of still silence? Probably not, but you can still
take a moment to regard each other and take a deep breath, rather than
beginning with an explosion of words.
PAM: You’re saying that the
pace is different in a short scene only in that it’s compacted. Not sped up.
CRAIG: Exactly.
Lucas Neff and Craig Cackowski of The Better Half |
PAM: That's great. And
helpful. And challenging to players launching into a short-form show or even a
Harold.
CRAIG: People feel
that pressure and get spazzy, and then all of a sudden you're in a three-minute
scene that's about 17 different things.
PAM: Exactly. That's been
driving me crazy lately.
CRAIG: It's
simplifying. One game. Make one thing important.
PAM: What's your approach to
game in the slowprov shows that you do?
CRAIG: It's not a
conscious approach, but it's juggling a lot of little games. For example, in a Dasariski show, I have a character game,
Rich has a character game, Bob has a character game. Bob and I have a
relationship game, Bob and Rich have a relationship game, Rich and I have a
relationship game. There is probably a game in how we relate to our
environment; there are larger story games probably as well.
But I say it's not a conscious
approach because it's something I FEEL, and can then articulate after the show
is over. It's not like I'm thinking, "What's the game of this
character?" while I'm playing him.
PAM: I think I need to understand how you
define game because you appear to have an expanded understanding of it than
what people might be used to.
CRAIG: Game is a
pattern, a pattern of behavior. Establishing rules for how each character
behaves, and sticking to those rules. In life, we change our behavior
constantly to fit the circumstances we're in. In comedy, a character rigidly
sticks to the same behavior despite the circumstances. That's his or her game.
So in life I'm loud and obnoxious at a bar and quiet and respectful at a
funeral. In comedy, you want to be the guy who is loud and obnoxious at a
funeral, and in ALL situations.
PAM: This relates to your advice to "Follow comedy logic, not real
life logic." Please
say more about that approach to game because I'm pretty deep into a philosophy of
perceiving comedy as merely a reflection of life. And I want to know what you
mean by this approach to fixed behavior.
CRAIG: Even the most
complex, three-dimensional comic character is way simpler than people are in
life. "Fair and balanced" is the stuff of 700-page novels and two and
a half hour indie dramas. When we're doing comedy, we're tipping the scales and
over-emphasizing one part of a character's behavior.
You have to find the unique logic
of each world you create, some of which will closely resemble our world. That's
when it gets most difficult, I think, when it SEEMS like it's our world - in
which case, people try to get across by just doing and saying the things that they
would do or say in real life - and thinking that's the honest or "real" response. I think improv teachers who say,
"Just do what you would do!" are doing improvisors a disservice. You
need to do what the CHARACTER would do.
PAM: When you perform Dasariski,
which I understand is a beautiful, slowprov show, are you seeking out the
comedy or just happening upon it? Are you alert to the game/pattern that you're
creating and going to continue to hit? Or are you just exploring these
characters' moments together?
CRAIG: I'd like to
think we skew more toward "just happening upon it." We hope the end
result will be comedy. Improvisors should trust that comedy is a by-product of
doing improv right. I think when we seek out the comedy, we sometimes find it,
but it results in a shallower show.
A lot of it is trust and comfort.
We each individually know we're funny. We know the group is funny collectively.
But when we try to be funny, it often
blows up in our face. You make what feels like the right move in the short
term, but it screws you long term. So a lot of what we do is trial-and-error.
We've done all the bullshit shows already so we're preprogrammed to avoid those
hackier choices.
However, we still have new mistakes
to make and learn from that we haven't made yet.
PAM: Ha! That's the beauty of
improvisation and why it keeps us by the short hairs.
So
I'm not sure I follow how these two views are consistent and employable. If
comedy logic is different than real-life logic, how can comedy be a by-product
of doing improv right? I love both these ideas, and I want to use them both!
CRAIG: You're right to
question it!
PAM: Phew. I felt like a
dumbass asking for that clarification.
CRAIG: In my case,
years of doing short form, then Harold, then Second City helped me to think
funny. For instance, it's easy for me to find the comic logic of any scene,
rather than impose real-life logic on it. So it's an autonomic process at this
point, unconscious behavior. Again, it's trial-and-error. My Terminator brain
won't allow me to make the choices that are doomed to failure. So it's a trust that the funny will
result.
I guess I should define what
"doing improv right" means to me! Being in the moment, listening and
reacting, choosing to know, adding specificity, committing, having a point of
view, raising stakes, saying yes to action. Just do all those things at once
and you'll be fine!
Craig and e.t.c. stage partners Jack McBrayer, Bridget Kloss Dario, and TJ Jagodowski (1999) [Photo from the vaults of Craig Cackowski] |
PAM: Oh, easy-peasy! No
problem. Ok, thanks. Now I just need 20 more years to practice those skills.
I
know you're not saying that an improviser has to be on the Second City Mainstage
to create that Terminator brain. But I think that getting in the reps is
crucial.
CRAIG: No, definitely
not. I was lucky to have that opportunity at Second City. But, yes, it's all
about the reps.
It's interesting to me when I meet
groups or communities that are mostly self-taught, or have limited access to
the teachers from the big communities. Because I think if you do and watch thousands
of improv scenes, no matter where you are, you're going to reach a lot of the
same conclusions about improv. But I think Mick [Napier] got it right in his
book [Improvise:
Scene from the Inside Out] when he said people assume causation when
they notice correlation. That is, people identify negative behavior and
assuming that's causing the bad scene.
PAM: Right.
Speaking
of self-taught, as you may recall I'm in a little, teeny, tiny island of improv
in western Mass., where our education is cobbled together (hopefully in a
unique and beautiful way). Just last week I tried to teach your exercise
“Things Get Worse” to my team, and I think I mucked it up. I was also having a
hard time incorporating the skills practiced in it with the slowprov tenets
we've been exploring.
CRAIG: In “Things Get Worse,” the improvisors are given a problem.
They can problem-solve, BUT they must immediately try anything they propose
(rather than shoot it down). And they must know that whatever they try isn't
going to work; it's only going to make the problem worse.
PAM: At the intensive, I remember a scene when two people were driving in the desert, and their car ran out of gas...and things got worse. There were rattlesnakes and a whole assortment of comedy of errors leading to a hilarious catastrophe. I think "Things Get Worse" is a fun and useful exercise in building an important
muscle, and I hope readers will find it helpful too. Do you have a description of it?
CRAIG: Sure.
Things Get
Worse
Description: This
exercise looks at creating a specific kind of game that exists in a world with
a comedic point of view. Get two people up and give them a minor problem (e.g.
car out of gas, nosebleed, hair in your food) that will exist at the beginning
of the scene. Their goal is to make things worse as the scene progresses rather
than fix the problem. While the game-moves will provide the structure for the
scene, and much of the action will be around trying to solve the problem, they
should still look to deal with one another throughout the scene, reacting
emotionally and adding as much information about each other as they are about
the circumstances we’re watching. Also, these scenes will all be richer if
there are higher stakes, so if scenes are feeling flat, encourage them right
from the outset to establish what is at stake here (e.g. we’re on our way to
our wedding, I’m in the middle of
giving my thesis defense, our relationship is on the rocks, etc.) If you have
time, you can also do a round of group scenes that play the same game.
Take-Aways: This
is a good "old school" comedy exercise in heightening (think Mr. Magoo, Three Stooges, Inspector
Clouseau, Jim Carrey, etc.). The audience gets bored hearing you talk about
problems and trying to stop them. If there's a difference between your
characters, we don't want you to reach a compromise; we want you to blow that
difference up out of proportion. It is endearing to see characters doing the
best they can with what they got, so people trying to do things with good
intentions and screwing them up will always be funny because we care about
them, and the higher stakes, the higher the comedy. Take your time in pacing
out the heightening, so it doesn't get too absurd too fast. Let it build
organically from the believable to the ridiculous, and use the space in between
the game moves to explore what’s going on between the characters.
PAM: Awesome. The fucking motherlode.
Thanks!
“Problem-solving
is comedy elimination” is another great Cacky quote I remember from last summer. I found that quote and this exercise very
enlightening because we learned that in a scene it was important not to
solve the problem, but to make it worse while staying true to our characters.
(I think you said something about a bully needing a nerd, not another bully, in
a scene.) The exercise was very counter-intuitive because in real life we tend
to want to fix or brainstorm away the problem rather than prolonging the agony.
You said what the character is asking for and what the improviser is asking for
are two different things. I thought it was so interesting that “Yes, and…”
means doing what the IMPROVISER wants, so if someone's character says, “Calm down” in a
scene, the improviser might be saying, “Be more insane.” And her partner should
agree to that (“Yes, and…”) by heightening the insanity.
CRAIG: I think it's
about each improvisor figuring out what their unique role is going to be in the
scene. So if I'm agreeing to be the nerd, I'm not going to spend the scene
trying to get out of being the nerd, or trying to make YOU the nerd, or trying
to negotiate with the bully. I'm going to be that FUCKING NERD. In other words,
I'm not trying to WIN the scene, or have the “correct” point of view. I want
both of us to agree to our roles, so we can win TOGETHER. My job as a writer of
the scene is to help you be a better bully, not to get you to stop bullying me.
But people want to be right, and
people want to win, so it leads to a lot of conflict-driven scenes. It's more
fun to lose, or to be gloriously wrong. When we talk about conflict in improv,
we're usually talking about the improvisors not being able to agree what they
want the scene to be about. Conflict between two characters we care about can
be compelling. Conflict between improvisors is boring. The worst kind of scene?
Two characters of equal status who both think they're right.
PAM: I see. Whenever I hear someone this
type of feed-the-bully relationship I am reminded me of Miles Stroth’s approach.
Is that where you're coming from?
CRAIG: Tell me more about his approach. Straight/absurd,
right?
PAM: Yes, yes, yes. That's it.
Thank you for sparing me trying to explain it. That was a job destined for a
spectacular failure.
CRAIG: I do think it's
one type of scene. I don't think every scene cuts across straight-absurd lines.
But a lot of improvisors don't know how to play straight man.
PAM: Good point. I would say that “How to Be a Straight Man”
should be a workshop, but I fear nobody would take it. Too many laugh whores.
CRAIG: Improvisors
tend to do that thing I was talking about before, which is they "Do what
they would do in real life." So they end up saying some variation of,
"Stop that. You're crazy! Get out of here." The straight man actually
gets more laughs when you do it right!
PAM: Right. But should they be treating the
crazy behavior as normal? Or is that different than feeding it?
CRAIG: That's one option. It's the straight man’s job to provide
context and specificity, to keep setting them up and giving them opportunities
for action. Though I would say if they're treating it as normal, they're
probably playing absurd themselves and just buying into the comic logic of the
scene.
Here's the classic example of
straight-absurd to me - and again, this is how comedy differs from life: The
scene is a job interview. In life, if a crazy person is at an interview, you'd
end the interview, call security, kick them out, tell them they're not getting
the job, etc. But in comedy, you want this scene to last AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. So
it's the grain of salt you take as the interviewer. I'm not going to try to end
the interview; I'm going try to prolong it.
So "You're crazy. Stop doing
that" is only going to go so far in an improv scene. In the interview, the
great thing is that you (the straight man) have their resumé in front of you,
so you keep going back to it, and read off more things to set them up.
PAM: You’re feeding it. And treating it as
"normal" in this world we're living it now.
CRAIG: Yes, that's why
making someone crazy or on drugs never works either. Because it makes them not
responsible for their behavior, and it makes too much sense.
PAM: Cool. We are told that
our job is to make our scene partners look good. How can we make our partners
important?
CRAIG: Assume that
your character either WANTS to be with your partners or HAS to be with your
partners. That way, you won't treat them as an annoyance, an obstacle, or an
adversary. Make your scene partner’s character familiar to you, so you can give
them gifts. See the character, not the improvisor.
PAM: Say that a different way
because I like it, and I want to hear more. Interact with the character, you
mean?
CRAIG: Well, if a
female improvisor is playing male, or an Asian improvisor is playing black, you
need to see that and help make it real for the audience.
PAM: Oh, sure. I see. Luckily,
I always play bi-gendered, Afro-Asians, but yeah. I get it.
CRAIG: If you want the
audience to see an improvisor in flannel and Chuck Taylors as a beautiful
princess in a gown and high heels, make them see that. It's our job to
stimulate each other’s imaginations. And the audience's.
PAM: “If you perform as if
something is important, the audience assumes it is.” (That quote is you, by the
way.) Tell me how best to
hyper-commit to the moment.
CRAIG: Oh, cool, Great quote, Craig.
Well, what are you waiting for?
Don't wait for inspiration to strike you or to “find it organically." Why
make the audience watch you warm up into the scene? Just decide that everything
going on right now is meaningful and important. It's the "paranoid
listening" thing that Del talked about. Every statement is fraught
with meaning. Every gesture reveals character. Otherwise, you're just waiting
around for the "real scene" to start, and you're wasting the
audience's time.
The "you" of course is an
imaginary improvisor, not you, Pam!
PAM: Ha! More notes, a year
later. I get it. Everyone’s a critic.
To
pay you back, get ready for some more great quotes. You said, “Pronouns are the
enemy of improv.” Which is related to your mantra, "Specificity begets
specificity." Why is specificity so hard for improvisers?
CRAIG: Because we're
worried about coming up with "funny" specifics instead of…well…specific specifics. You never know
what's going to unlock the imagination of your partner. Start filling in some
of those blanks early. Then you and your partner can figure out how to make it
funny, together. But scenes that start vague tend to stay vague.
PAM: It's interesting you bring that up
because I've spent some time this summer examining Melissa McCarthy's work, like in The Heat. Her specificity is ASTOUNDING. But if you
really listen, not every bit of it is comedy gold.
CRAIG: Awesome, I
haven't seen it yet. But that's a good observation of her.
PAM: The brilliance of Ms. McCarthy is that she has an "on" button for specificity that never turns off. She's a machine. I am in awe of some of her work. I think she proves your point exactly. Sometimes, she's just saying
specific stuff...which we find funny.
CRAIG: We DO! We love
specifics. Like I said, you never know what's going to resonate with people. But
none of our life experiences are so unique. Something that resonates with us is
probably going to resonate for someone else.
PAM: We
need to spend our final moments together talking about Craig Cackowski, the
(award-winning!) teacher, because I think that’s a place where you really let
your love of the craft shine. What have you learned most about improvisation
since becoming a teacher?
CRAIG: Only do scenes
about things you care about. If you're bored with your own scene, how do you
think the audience feels?
[Photo courtesy of Audrey Cackowski] |
* * *
If you are in Los Angeles, and you’d like to see Craig Cackowski’s work yourself (you lucky dog, you...oops, sorry Audrey!),
once a month he plays in Dasariski (with Bob Dassie and Rich Talerico) at UCB and in The Thrilling Adventure Hour at Largo, which you also can hear every week via podcast. At iO - West Theatre, his popular, talent-packed shows Quartet (with Bob Dassie, Tami Sagher, Jean Villepique, Stephnie Weir, and Jack McBrayer) and The Better Half (with Lucas Neff) are on hiatus right now, but coming back to soon. If you’re on the improv festival circuit, you’ll probably run into Craig sooner or later, and I recommend you take his workshops and see his shows.
Whether or not you’re in LA or on the road, you can see Craig as a regular in Drunk History on Comedy Central every Tuesday at 10.
once a month he plays in Dasariski (with Bob Dassie and Rich Talerico) at UCB and in The Thrilling Adventure Hour at Largo, which you also can hear every week via podcast. At iO - West Theatre, his popular, talent-packed shows Quartet (with Bob Dassie, Tami Sagher, Jean Villepique, Stephnie Weir, and Jack McBrayer) and The Better Half (with Lucas Neff) are on hiatus right now, but coming back to soon. If you’re on the improv festival circuit, you’ll probably run into Craig sooner or later, and I recommend you take his workshops and see his shows.
Whether or not you’re in LA or on the road, you can see Craig as a regular in Drunk History on Comedy Central every Tuesday at 10.
* * *
Read Geeking Out with...Jazz Freddy,
in which Craig Cackowski is quoted as saying,
Jazz Freddy “demanded that critics look at it as a piece of theatre…I can't tell you how important that was...it's taken a while, but I think Chicago critics finally give improv the respect it deserves when they review it, without using words like skits,’ ‘send-ups,’ ‘yuks,’ and, god forbid, ‘spoofmeisters.’"
*
Catch up on past improv geek-a-thons:
Geeking Out with…Dave Pasquesi of TJ and Dave
...David Razowsky of iO West
…with Joe Bill of BASSPROV
...Charna Halpern, co-founder of iO Theatre
...Susan Messing of Messing with a Friend
Pam Victor is an improv comedian, author, teacher, consultant, and nice person. She is the founder and Head of Happiness of Happier Valley Comedy, the epicenter of improv in Western Mass, where Pam teaches The Zen of Improv to the best students in the world as well as bringing the power of improvisation to the workplace in her "Through Laughter" program. TJ Jagodowski, David Pasquesi, and Pam are the co-authors of "Improvisation at the Speed of Life: The TJ and Dave Book." She lives online at www.pamvictor.com.
Unless you're a meanie, Pam would probably like you.
Great interview! Here be gems!
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