By Pam Victor
[“Geeking Out with…” is a series of interviews with well-known, highly experienced improvisers. It’s a chance to talk about stuff that might interest hardcore, improv dorkwads like Pam. The series can be found in full frontal geek out version on My Nephew is a Poodle and in pithier version on the Women in Comedy Festival blog. For behind-the-scenes action, ‘like’ the “Geeking Out with…” Facebook page.]
[“Geeking Out with…” is a series of interviews with well-known, highly experienced improvisers. It’s a chance to talk about stuff that might interest hardcore, improv dorkwads like Pam. The series can be found in full frontal geek out version on My Nephew is a Poodle and in pithier version on the Women in Comedy Festival blog. For behind-the-scenes action, ‘like’ the “Geeking Out with…” Facebook page.]
***
In a Chicago Reader article from 2002, Conan O’Brien
writer Kevin Dorff said, "Charna created a space for us to be fully
committed to our ideas and not fear failure." As Charna Halpern and I
continue our geek out/mind meld from Geeking Out with…CharnaHalpern (Part One,) it becomes more and more clear how much space she has created - and continues to create - for
developing comedians hoping to make the whole world laugh. Training true
comedians is not easy work, and neither is mixing art and business. At times,
Charna Halpern’s no-nonsense methods rub people the wrong way. However the fact thatiO Theatre consistently produces a supremely high level of improvised comedic theater is undeniable testimony to the singular force that is Charna Halpern. In
my humble opinion, improvisers owe her thanks for creating,
maintaining, and growing iO Theatre. Speaking for myself alone, I am most
grateful for her work and dedication to this art form that makes my life so
much richer. (You probably think I’m a suck up for writing that - and sure, if
you shouldn’t suck up to Charna in this business, who should you suck up to? -
but be that as it may, this is what I honestly believe to be true.) I am
grateful for iO Theatre, past, present, and future.
* * *
PAM: How do you
interpret Del's ‘geniuses, poets, and artists’ quote. I love it, and I use it
all the time.
Charna and Del (Photo courtesy of iO Theatre) |
CHARNA: It’s about treating each other’s ideas as if they
are the most brilliant things we've ever heard. Respecting each other’s ideas
because we believe in the genius of each other. I have a story for you…
PAM: I can't
wait.
CHARNA: A number of years ago, I got a call from Kevin Dorff who was a writer on
the Conan O’Brien Show, along with
other iO alumni Brian Stack, Jon Glazer and Brian McCann. Kevin said, "Charna,
you will be so proud when you hear what just happened today." They wrote a
bit for the show, and in rehearsal Conan said he didn’t like it because it was
too close to a movie that had just come out. He asked if they could come up
with something else. So they all walked over to the edge of the stage and in
minutes they had something else.
Conan
said, "This is brilliant. How did you come up with something so brilliant
so fast?"
Kevin Dorff |
Kevin
said, "We’re an iO team."
The
meaning behind this story is that if Brian McCann has an inkling of an idea,
Kevin Dorff is going to think, “Well, if Brian thinks this is funny, there must
be something to it ‘cause Brian is a genius.” So Kevin adds to it. Then McCann
thinks to himself, “Well if Dorff and Stack think this is funny, I’ll add to it
‘cause those guys are geniuses.” And in seconds, because of how they treat and
respect each other, they created brilliance. And they use this philosophy in
their work daily and thought I would be happy to see how it works.
PAM: That is a
great story. At iO, I learned a lot about suspending judgment on stage too.
CHARNA: Yeah. Who wants to work with an asshole who says, “NO,
my idea is better”?
That’s
why iO people get so much work. People want to work with others who follow that
philosophy, so they tend to come back and "throw down the rope," so to speak.
PAM: But, c'mon
Charna. We don't all work with Brian Stack and Dorff. Chances are, we're going
to play with some duds now and then. It's hard to imagine them as geniuses.
CHARNA: JUDGEMENT!!!!
PAM: Hahaha.
Yes. I know. It's my biggest flaw on stage. And I'm my own worst judge too.
(I'm working on it!)
CHARNA: Look at someone like TJ [Jagodowski.] I’ve seen him
take people from the audience and play with them. Tara DeFrancisco takes brand
new students who have no skills at all and makes them brilliant. Everything is
used and everything works. “Judge not lest ye be judged.” (Oops, God just took
over the keyboard for a second. I apologize.)
And
even if someone isn’t brilliant that night, even if someone comes up with a
lame idea by accident because they are totally blocked, let's not forget we
also get laughs by agreement. So when the other player takes that lame idea and
agrees - and commits to using it - the audience howls.
That’s
not to say we shouldn’t always try to come up with the best ideas. Let’s not
purposely test this theory. But we get laughs through agreement, especially
when we are put to the test of accepting the lame idea.
PAM: That's an
excellent point, Charna. One of my favorite things about writing this series is
that I get to work on, read and re-read, and really ingest important concepts
like the one above. Thank you.
My next question is, what is the interplay between
judgment and assessment? We are not supposed to judge ourselves or others on
stage, but does that extend to after the show too? What role does assessment
play, of our own work and the work of others, in improv?
CHARNA: I definitely think folks can and should talk after
a show to assess what went well and what went wrong. Absolutely. But keep in
mind, it’s all in the semantics. You can say something to let someone know what
you meant to do and not come off ACCUSATORY. It’s important to talk about what
worked and what didn’t work and why, so you can work on the problem next time.
You
know, that’s how many of the rules we have today were created. Del called them
the "Kitchen Rules” because they came about in Elaine May’s apartment
after a show one night. They were trying to figure out what went wrong. They
decided that instead of saying no to an idea, they would say yes. And if they
got a flat tire and someone said, "Do you have a car jack?" the
answer would be yes. They would always have what they needed. That way things
would move along in the scene. The rules of agreement came about after
assessing a show that went horribly wrong.
PAM: At iO, I
experienced the benefits of really, truly working with a team who took care of
each other. I am not exaggerating that the intensive was one of the happiest
five weeks of my life. I made 13 friends for life, and I know any of them would
do anything for me at the drop of a hat. As I would for them. On stage or off.
[Readers, if you’re debating attending the summer intensive at
iO, I say do it! Do it now!]
Charna, this won’t go in the article, but for the
record, our Week One teacher Lyndsay Hailey
was instrumental in bonding our team. I've told her this many times, but I want
you to know that the information that Lyndsay taught me serves me every SINGLE
time I walk on stage. And I reference her sayings very frequently with my home
team. Her style and message really resonated with me. I adore her...and I am
pretty sure we were her favorite team of the summer, if not all time. I know
you appreciate her, but I wanted to give her a shout-out off the record.
CHARNA: Put this in. She deserves it. She is a great teacher
and one of my closest friends. She and Tara [DeFrancisco] and I went to the
psychic together. One of the things the psychic said to me is, "I know you
want to be there to give Lyndsay advice on her life, but you must wait until she
asks. Don’t keep telling her what to do."
Lyndsay Hailey, Charna Halpern, Tara DeFrancisco [Photo courtesy of Tara DeFrancisco] |
I
said, "Yeah that’s not gonna happen." The psychic almost fell off her
chair. (This can go in the article too.)
I
love Lyndsay. She and Tara love the students, love iO. I’d be lost without
them.
PAM: Fantastic.
CHARNA: I’m so glad that she gave you that important lesson
and those friendships. That’s what separates iO from the rest. It’s HOME.
PAM: By the way,
I give Lyndsay unsolicited advice too!
CHARNA: Well, she better just listen to me.
PAM: Maybe we're
giving her the same advice?
Back to the subject of the iO curriculum…Is it
correct that in its original design, Level Two was what is now Level Three? I
understand that Susan Messing designed the current Level Two, which is focused
on character, is that right? Can you talk about iO’s philosophical approach to
creating character?
And before you anticipate my next question, here it is: I have heard that Del encouraged students to wear character as “thin veils”? Can you explain to me what that means to you?
CHARNA: Yes, Level Three was Two, but we moved it because
people wished they had it later when they can appreciate it.
Del
use to say, "Wear your character like a straw boater. Light enough to tip
it and reveal yourself." You take on these characteristics and bring yourself
to it to make it three-dimensional. What would you be like if you were a serial
killer? I remember when Jeffrey Dalmer was caught with all the heads in his
fridge after he ate the people. But the neighbor said he was a nice guy who used
to mow his lawn. Yes, he was just like you and me, but he happened to eat
people.
You
can bring some humanity to anything with some added characteristics - that one
little thing that may set you off. It’s the idea of, “What would I be like if I
were that person?” That’s one of the things Susan works on, and there is some
cool group work too.
PAM: I find the
concept of wearing one’s character very lightly - but also with a strong
foundation in reality - so interesting. Of course it makes perfect sense.
CHARNA: My favorite example is Carol O’Connor as Archie
Bunker [in the TV series All in the
Family]. He played an amazing bigot. He was so real. His take was that a
bigot was ignorant. He managed to make that statement through his character. He
was incredibly real, and the humanity he brought to that character actually
made him loveable. Archie Bunker was a great guy - he just didn’t want any
black people in his house.
PAM: Oh dear.
Ha.
CHARNA: Did you ever see that show? It was amazing.
PAM: Of course I
watched that show. Everybody did.
CHARNA: That’s character work.
PAM: It really
was.
CHARNA: Some folks nowadays are so young they have no idea
what I’m talking about when I use him as an example. It kills me.
PAM: Yeah, All in the Family
doesn't transport through time well. You had to be there.
CHARNA: Dick Van Dyke was amazing too. So honest in
everything. His body was his tool.
PAM: Definitely.
The man had funny bones, so he didn't have to do anything.
In classes at iO, I think I heard the term “grounded”
a wadzillion times, much to my improviser heart’s delight. Tell me what that
means to you and why it’s such a great focus at iO.
CHARNA: It just refers to strong scene work. Strong
relationships as opposed to totally being lost up there.
PAM: I don’t
want to put you in the position of playing favorites, but I’m curious what team
or show do you think optimizes the iO philosophy?
CHARNA: TJ and Dave and Improvised
Shakespeare.
PAM: That's what
I figured.
CHARNA: Also Whirled
News Tonight. Those folks have a high reference level, and show how the
news of the day affects our lives. They are great.
PAM: Have you
seen any shows or players lately outside of iO that have gotten you really
excited about improv?
CHARNA: In Canada, I was hired to direct some folks from
Edmonton and New York and some other cities. They were the best from the
previous festivals who were invited back this year to work with me and to put
up a show. (Mark Meer was
one - you folks can Google him.) They were inspiring and reinvigorated me to come
back and teach an advanced level. These folks took to everything I showed them
like fish to water. They killed. Excellent improvisers and most of them were
actually just actors. Just brilliant people.
Lucas Neff with iO veteran Craig Cackowski who perform The Better Half at iO West |
Also
Lucas Neff from Raising Hope. He has been sitting in
whenever he is in town, and he plays in a show at iOWest. He was never trained
as an improviser, but has such tremendous respect for the work. He loves iO. He
did lots of shows last week, and he was fantastic. It was exciting watching
someone just doing what comes naturally and being successful.
PAM: I think
it’s key that the people you just mentioned are actors.
Speaking of TV, I’m so curious about what your
conversations with Lorne Michaels are like when he comes around scouting for
Saturday Night Live.
CHARNA: He is very sweet and very appreciative and
complimentary. He is always blown away by the showcases I’ve put up for him,
and he tells me he depends on the iO training. I loved that.
The
one thing he said to me that was the most important thing ever, happened years
ago. I put up an improv show with some of the best people. My folks were so
giving to each other. It was a musical. They literally handed the spotlight to each
other, so that everyone had a moment. He recognized that and was in awe. Usually
folks try to take the spotlight and are only concerned with themselves. He couldn’t
believe how caring and giving the folks were to each other. That makes folks
look like they aren’t desperate that way. I was pleased he saw that. And that’s
probably why he comes back year after year.
(Boy,
am I writing too much?)
PAM: (Are you
kidding???? I'm loving it!)
So many people come
through your theater to get a chance to be on SNL. What do you advise them is
the best path for an improviser to transition to comedy on the screen?
CHARNA: First, I tell people not to come here to be on SNL or to be famous. You
need to come here because you love the work. If you love the work you will come
to the shows, your classes, and play as much as you can. Then you will get good
and rise to the top. Those who come here to be famous usually have nervous
breakdowns. When you get good folks will notice you.
Everyone’s
path is different. Sometimes writing is a great path, but you end up not
performing for a long time. But it gets you into that world. But SNL isn’t the
only path. Write for a talk show. Create videos. Lots of things are happening
with folks who post videos. I’m creating a network with a woman, so that we can
create pilots. We have so much talent here. We don’t have to go to Comedy Central
to sell stuff anymore. It’s a new day.
PAM: That's true. I made a comic soap opera web
series about a cooperative farm!
CHARNA: A unique idea. I’d love to see it. [Pam plotzes, but still puts in a link to
her show.]
PAM: What would
the best path for a person who wants to have a career in improv – not to get on
TV, not to work at Second City, not as a mean to an ends. I mean, a career in
the pure art of improvisation strictly for its own pleasure? (I think there are
exactly seven people making a living successfully at improvisation; but I’m an
eternal optimist, which is why I ask.)
CHARNA: Probably to have a different job to pay your bills,
so that you can improvise at night and not worry about making money. Lots of
folks do that. I
have lawyers at iO that are brilliant - Rush Howell and Gianni Cutri - they should be stars, but they
love their jobs. But on stage, they are career improvisers.
PAM: It sucks that improv doesn't pay. I
know way too many people who do jobs they don’t love only to afford their
improv habit. Just the other day, a friend of mine bemoaned, “I just want to
support myself creatively, so I can do more improv.”
It baffles me that improv comedy doesn’t pay well.
Musicians get paid more per gig than the vast majority of improvisers, even at
the top theaters. Can you please speak to the financials of improv? Why doesn’t
being a genius, poet, and artist pay better?
CHARNA: First let me say that some improvisers can support
themselves. People like Tara and Lyndsay teach here, then do road show and corporate
gigs. Some do commercials. So it can be done. But again, you have to be on the
top of your game for that to happen. TJ and Dave do commercials and voiceover
work and movies, but there is a struggle until you get there. It doesn’t happen
overnight. But it can happen.
Speaking
for myself, for the newer improvisers - and there are hundreds - performance is
part of their learning process. If I were going to hire performers for a
salary, I’d hire ten and cut two hundred. I don’t think folks would like that.
They want the chance to get good and performance does that.
PAM: Ah. Very
interesting. Just a few improvisers get paid to perform at iO, yes?
CHARNA: I have incredible expenses to run a theater. It
costs around $80,000 a month just to keep the doors open. The top shows get a
healthy percentage of the door. But I can’t pay 300 new performers. Every time
you pay someone, you pay payroll tax and workers comp…it costs a lot of money
just to pay someone. I help folks get agents and outside work when they are
ready, and I give them the shot when they are ready for it as well, like
letting Lorne see them. But with rent and property tax and the bullshit the
city gives you…let’s just say, people think you are rich when you own a
theater. They have no clue what’s really going on.
PAM: Yeah. I'm
not pointing fingers at you or iO. But it makes me sad, in general, that
musicians would never do a gig for free, but we do it habitually. Even regular stage actors get paid.
CHARNA: I’m not feeling paranoid. But I don’t know what
musicians you’re talking about. They have it just as bad. They rarely make
money.
PAM: I don't
know that many musicians who would do a gig for free. Improv is a financially
under-appreciated art form.
CHARNA: A club will give musicians a potion of the door and
keep the rest. Usually the club owner hasn’t made much, and he hopes liquor
sales will make the rest of the nut.
Before
I had my own space, I worked in 17 different places. Seventeen - no lie. I was thrown
out because the club owners didn’t make enough money on us. Andy Richter had a
truck and use to put our set in it, and call me and say, "Where are we
going next, Charna?" To this day, he thinks the only reason he stayed on a
team was because he had a pickup truck.
PAM: I think the
fact that improv is as addictive as heroin might be at the heart of it. Improv
has us by the short hairs. We have to do it. I'd rather eat Ramen noodles and
improvise than eat steak and not improvise.
CHARNA: You get the bug. John Belushi jumped off Del’s stage
in a workshop and said, “THIS IS BETTER THAN FUCKING!”
PAM: I've heard
a lot of people say that. LOL.
CHARNA: I ate peanut butter and jelly for a year too. It’s
because we want to do that which makes us happiest.
PAM: When it's good, it's soooo good.
CHARNA: OH YEAH!!!
PAM: Yeah. And
when I'm Queen of the World, improvisers are going to get to perform for the
pure joy of it AND get paid like Hollywood royalty.
CHARNA: Hey, it makes you appreciate the good time when they
are there. It’s called paying your dues. Tina and Amy ain’t starvin’ now.
But
I remember Amy taking me to thrift stores and pulling together an outfit
for two bucks. Of course, she
looked cute in anything.
PAM: Amy Poehler
couldn't stop herself from being cute.
I'm asking this for folks who are starting out in
Chicago and to stoke my faraway dreams of playing at iO. I know there hundreds
of improvisers in Chicago who are working their tails off just to get a spot on
an iO house team or a Harold team. (Hell, if you would take him, I’d trade in
my first born for the chance.) How do you suggest an improviser go about
achieving that goal?
CHARNA: Many do it. Just by taking classes. I need to do the
training here for quality control. The teams come out of my classes. They get
an eight-week run in their Level 5B class, and we can see who is ready. Those
who aren’t ready can continue training in electives and audition. I do
auditions every six months. If someone really wants it, they can have it.
A who's who of improvlucsciousness at iO's 25th anniversary [Photo courtesy of iO Theatre] |
PAM: So many
amazing comedians have gone through iO training, like Tim Meadows, Chris
Farley, Mike Myers, Rachel Dratch, Vanessa Bayer from SNL, Scott
Adsit, Jack McBrayer, and John Lutz from 30 Rock, Kate Flannery, Angela Kinsey, and Dave Koechner from The Office, Eric Stonestreet from Modern Family, Wyatt Cenac from The Daily Show…the list goes on and on. Didn’t you train
Stephen Colbert too?
CHARNA: Yes, I did train Colbert. He and David Schwimmer
[from Friends] were in a college team
I trained for my college competition. They were from Northwestern, and their
team name was No Fun Mud Piranhas. They were great, and he and I have kept in
touch. I visited his show last year. He gave me tickets to bring my entire
family to a taping as we were all in New York for my nephew’s wedding. It was a
hoot. And by the way, his director and head writer are iO alum.
PAM: I am amazed
time and time again that iO Theatre is the unsung hero of the comedy world. I
mean, Second City gets all the credit, but the FOUNDATION of the comedy world
was built by iO!
CHARNA: Yup.
PAM: Last
question: What is something about Charna Halpern that people might be surprised
to know?
CHARNA: Hmmmm. I’m the type of person who wants to help
everyone. Most people don’t know me well enough and some fear me. I also have a
great sense of humor and sometimes the kids don’t expect that. So they don’t
know I might be doing a bit, and they take something I said seriously. I like
to goof around. That would surprise people.
PAM: Excellent.
I was half-hoping you would admit to sleeping with Andy Dick, but that was good
too.
CHARNA: I’d never admit to sleeping with Andy Dick.
* * *
"It’s life, but a little bit better when you improvise.
You’re your best self."
...David Razowsky of iO West
…with Joe Bill of BASSPROV
…Jimmy Carrane of the Improv Nerd podcast
…Susan Messing of Messing with a Friend
and many more!
And "like" the "Geeking Out with..." FACEBOOK PAGE please.
Pam Victor is the founding member of The Ha-Ha’s, and she produces The Happier Valley Comedy Show in western Massachusetts. Pam directs, produces and performs in the comic soap opera web series "Silent H, Deadly H". Pam also writes mostly humorous, mostly true essays and reviews of books, movies, and tea on her blog, "My Nephew is a Poodle." If you want to stay abreast of all the geek out action, like the “Geeking Out with…” Facebook page!
Another great article! Thanks Pam for asking the questions we are all curious about! :)
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