[“Geeking Out with…” is a series of interviews with well-known, highly experienced improvisers. It’s a chance to talk about stuff that might interest hardcore, improv dorkwads like Pam. The series can be found in full frontal geek out version here.]
To be totally honest, I was nervous to interview Mark
Sutton of BASSPROV. On
stage, he seems like a sandpaper gruff guy. A straight shooter with wicked
bullshit meter. And though that may be true, once we started talking I also
found him to have a gooey marshmallow center. And it’s this dichotomy that
makes Mark Sutton so damn delightful. He’s a dedicated family man who performed
in Co-Ed Prison Sluts. A guy who’s into baseball and brioche. A
Springsteen devotee who also can quote – be still my heart - Michael Franti. As his longtime
comedy partner, Joe Bill, assured me, “Mark is a teddy bear in presidential
posture.” Joe should know. He’s got that same gruff-gooey groove going on.
This personality sleight-of-hand is one key
ingredient in the BASSPROV magic. On the surface, the show is about Donny
Weaver and Earl Hinkle, two seemingly ordinary, blue-collar, Indiana good ol’
boys fishing on a boat. But Mark and Joe play them smart and emotionally deep,
and – not to give anything away but - the fishing is a red herring. BASSPROV
performs the same “complex simplicity” that make TJ
and Dave so impossibly compelling. As such, Mark Sutton’s work has given me
a deeper understanding of what it means to “play to the top of your character’s
intelligence.” In a recent set, as I watched Mark’s character opine cleverly
about art history, I remember thinking, “Hey, that guy wouldn’t know all that
stuff.” But ten minutes later (and again in this interview), I bitchslapped
myself at my prejudice. Very consciously and thoughtfully, Mark and Joe expand
their BASSPROV characters multi-dimensionally while toying with our assumptions
about class and intelligence.
Mark and Joe. TJ and Dave. These performers don’t
just make me want to be a better improviser, they make me want to be a smarter
individual. Their work challenges us to have rich, full and varied lives off
stage – as Del advised – and filter that experience and knowledge through our
characters on stage. Smart comedy can be hiding anywhere, people. And if you’re
lucky enough to be in the audience, you’ll find it on a small fishing boat
bobbing lazily along on a remote Indiana lake.
***
PAM VICTOR: Over
the weekend, I has the opportunity to be reminded of your improv history while
I was in the bathroom...
MARK SUTTON: Ha.
PAM: ...I noticed on the paper
towel dispenser, it said "Georgia Pacific." [Mark was in Georgia
Pacific, the talent-packed Harold troupe at iO Theatre in Chicago.]
MARK: Classic.
PAM: Is that where the name came
from?
MARK:I
think so. I was not in the original group, but came in later. So they already
had the name.
PAM: How old was the group when
you came in?
MARK: I
think a few years. I remember in Kansas City the first time they did The Bat, and that
was in the mid-late 90's. I played with them in 1999 until whenever Charna
[Halpern] took them off the schedule. Around 2001, I think.
Georgian Pacific Chris Day, Mark Sutton, TJ Jagodowski, Joe Bill, Kris Hammond, Pat Shay, Bumper Carroll, Lisa Lewis and Jack McBrayer. |
PAM: Was that your first iO
team?
MARK: Yes.
I just started guesting with them. Joe Bill had directed them. And then he
started playing, so I jumped in and played.
PAM: Actually, just a few weeks
ago, Joe was regaling me with stories of your Georgia Pacific
days. It seems like a drool-worthy group. You and Joe. TJ
Jagodowski and Jack McBrayer
[Kenneth the Page from “30 Rock.”] And then a couple other guys whose names I'm
not recalling...
MARK: Pat
Shay, who's awesome. Kris Hammond - in real life a professor of
artificial intelligence at Northwestern. Chris Day and Lisa Lewis. Oh, and
Bumper Carroll.
PAM: Oh
yes. That's right. Fantastic. Though it didn’t make it in the written version, when
I interviewed TJ, he told me that after Dave Pasquesi, McBrayer is the one
of the partners he connects with most on stage. So I was particularly excited
about imagining you two power couples – you and Joe Bill, TJ Jagodowski and
Jack McBrayer - playing together on stage. Very hot.
MARK: Yeah.
TJ and Jack sometimes sat in on [acclaimed Annoyance show] Screw Puppies, and I started really enjoying playing with them.
Then I had Jack in my touring company at Second City in 1999, so we
bonded more then.
PAM: I'm a huge McBrayer fan,
improv-wise. I recently met him on the "30 Rock" set. He was as kind
and hard-working as everyone says.
Jack McBrayer |
MARK: He's
just such a great performer and a genuine guy. Georgia Pacific has not been a group for over 11 years and, to this
day, every person in that group gets a call from Jack McBrayer on their
birthday.
PAM: Awww. Yeah, he seems like
the real deal. That's always nice to see.
How was that experience, for you, of playing at iO after giving birth to Annoyance?
How was that experience, for you, of playing at iO after giving birth to Annoyance?
MARK: I
was nervous at first. I sort of had a reputation around IO - somewhat
deserved - so that every time I would even come into the building, people would
look at me and say, "What are you doing here?"...as in, “I thought
you hated this place.” Then suddenly I was playing there. On top of
that, it's a different expectation, and you're playing with people who are
considered IO stars. It was strange at first.
PAM: What was your reputation?
That you hated iO?
MARK: I
think it was a good one, but IO was, and still is, often very insular. So
there were tons of younger people there watching the shows who I'm sure had no
idea who I was since I wasn't ever an IO guy, and they seldom ventured outside
of that bubble.
And yes, I think there was a
thought that I hated IO, but that goes waaay back to the "rivalry
days" of Chicago improv.
PAM: Improvisers moving to
Chicago or visiting to do an intensive often ask me at which of the three big
theaters they should study. What do you advise for someone just starting out
studying improv in Chicago?
MARK: That's
always a tough one because each place is so different and teaching comes at you
in different ways. I think the first thing you need to do - and this is
often very hard - is do a really solid self-evaluation as a performer.
Not just where you think you are, but what you want. If you are a
very new improviser, you may want to go to Second City, and really get a
solid foundation in the basics, then move on. If you want to perform long
form, go to IO. If you
want to work on yourself as an individual and increase your confidence, range,
and character stuff...come to Annoyance.
PAM: You think Second City
provides more of a solid foundation of improvisation than iO?
MARK: Well,
from a basic perspective, probably. Although I have to say that I've had
virtually no exposure to the IO program. But I've taught in the basic
levels of Second City, and if you come to Chicago knowing little or nothing
about improv, you should go there. Also if you want to eventually work
there, you should go there because you are not only learning skills but the
philosophy of the work they do. However, the wild card in all of this is
the teacher. You can have a great or shitty experience anywhere depending
on your teacher and how they speak to you. So, as with any art form, you have
to find teachers that you connect with and work with them.
PAM: I absolutely LOVED my
experience at the iO Summer Intensive. And now my next big fantasy/goal is to
do the Annoyance intensive this summer. I wish it were longer than a week -
such amazing teachers!
MARK: Nice.
PAM: Ok, I have waaaay too many
questions still left over, and as much as I'd LOVE to go through more history
with you, I feel like I should jump into some philosophy/theory.
MARK: Cool.
PAM: How can improvisers best
get out of their own way?
MARK: Talk
less...listen more. If you are really focused on your partner and
listening to them it takes you away from yourself, and you can just react.
PAM: Perhaps this next question is related.
What mistakes do you see many improvisers making with regards to playing the
emotional connections of a scene?
MARK: Well,
first of all I think you have to go on the assumption that most improvisers are
pretty shitty at emotional connection. Why? Because we don't want
to be truly vulnerable. Why? Because then we can't get out of it
with a joke or ironic statement for observation. If you want to connect
emotionally, you have to go all in, and that's tough for improvisers.
They find it very constricting, I think. So they sort of go there...but
then you don't buy it.
PAM: You don't buy it because it
doesn't come from a grounded place?
MARK: Right.
And you - the audience - can tell they are not really engaged, so you are
waiting for the joke. Then neither the joke nor the connection has the right
payoff.
PAM: You're saying the comedy -
or joke - of the scene is the Achilles heel of most improvisers?
MARK: I
would say it's even simpler than that. I think it's expectation. (I'm
really big on this right now.) Too many improvisers go into scenes with too
much expectation. It's the whole "get out of your head" thing.
I think improvisers get in their heads because they project results on to
their choices...now you have expectation about something that is not totally in
your control. And when those expectations are not met in the scene, it throws
you off.
PAM: Agh.
This is too delicious. I'm on overload of threads I want to follow here. Let's
start with your feelings on expectations, which is something that I wanted to
ask you anyway. I heard that you said in a workshop that you don’t like when
people say, “Let’s have a great show” or “Let’s make this the best show ever.”
Can you explain what it is you don’t like about that mindset, and how you think
improvisers should best approach a show? Is this the expectation thing you were
referring to?
Mark in BASSPROV |
MARK: Yes,
it speaks directly to the expectation thing. Everybody wants the show to
be great...that's a given. But how to you "try" to do a great
show? That's a ridiculous position to put yourself in before walking
onstage. All you can do is what you are going to do, and then it will be
great - or not - depending on what happens.
It's also a totally personal
evaluation. So, for instance, if you are in a six person group, you have
six different ideas of what "great' is. So now you are all - without
really knowing it - pulling in six different directions. But...if you
simply agree to commit and serve the show no matter what happens and what
presents itself, then you're all pulling in the same direction.
PAM: Please tell me more about
how an improviser should set her mind before a show. I mean, literally, what words can we tell our team as
a mantra before we go on stage?
MARK: I've
been performing since 1984, and as best as I recall, I've never said,
"Let's go do a great show." I look at people backstage and
simply say, “Let's do a show.” Or, “Let's have fun”.....or sometimes, in
the Annoyance mindset, “Don't fuck
it up.” That's a way of saying, " Whatever is about to happen is
supposed to happen." That's just how it is, and you give yourself
over to that and ride the wave.
PAM: It's about being PRESENT on
a molecular and psychic level.
MARK: I
think so...what else can you do?
Many people know that three
of my biggest passions outside of improv are baseball, cooking and survival.
I love survival shows and the outdoors. In all of those things, you
have to be present, focused. You have to be in contact with the food, the
earth, all that shit. It makes you present. You can't take things for
granted. If you are serving dinner for 38 people like I did the other
night, you can't take for granted the food tastes good. You have to taste it,
be with it, respond to it all the time.
PAM: I see what you mean. There are
many ways to approach getting into the Moment. It's all so fucking Zen when it comes do to it. Do
you see that, or is it too woo-woo for you? (I'm a hippy.)
MARK: No, I
think it's totally like that. You have to quiet your mind and be present...then
deal with what's actually happening and not what you want to have happen. Like
survival. You must assess, adapt, and react to the situation as it is.
And you can't have expectations...you just see and respond. Play
the scene that's happening, not the one you want to have happen.
PAM: Now I understand better what you
mean about "getting out of your own way." I am left wondering
how to encourage improvisers to achieve this level of commitment and
mindfulness. I'm speaking in purely practical matters here.
MARK: I
think you encourage improvisers to trust each other and be okay with it not
always being okay. It's fine to be searching a bit during a show, that's
discovery. It's fine if the audience doesn't always get it, that's
surprise. All those things are fine and what makes improv great.
PAM: I'd like to come back to
the idea of vulnerability. Actually I have a really hard time with that term
because I find it very nebulous. It's hard to teach "vulnerable,"
which is why I think there must be another term or approach. But still I'm
wondering how best can an improviser get to a real place of vulnerability?
MARK: Yeah,
it's a tough word because it sounds like you're asking performers to be pussies.
PAM: Hahaha!
MARK: But
I think it's different. I think it's about not worrying how you look.
Losing the cool, detached element that so many performers, especially
guys, feel like they need to have to be "comedians." Why do TJ
and Dave relate to so well? Because they are not afraid to take the shell
off and be hurt – affected - by the other. Why is Louis CK so great in
his show? Because he's vulnerable...he's real and the funny comes from
that genuine quality.
PAM: But here's the problem,
Mark. How do you TEACH vulnerable?
MARK: Here's
how I do it. I put performers in places they don't want to go, and I make
them react truthfully. I constantly call them out on what is happening
and how they are reacting to it, pushing for consistent emotional response and
not selling out moments. “Why did you say that? Your scene partner just
said this to you....how are you going to respond to that, etc.” You keep
making people go to that place until the muscle gets built.
PAM: Yes, yes. I love it so
much. And this leads to our next issue: Fear. I have been thinking a lot lately
about the place of fear in improvisation. I’ve been struck by the interesting
fact that fear is the crux of the problem nearly every time – if not literally
every time – an improviser is lead astray in a scene. It’s fascinating to watch
new improvisers in particular twist themselves into knots in order to avoid
making an actual declaration or action. And I feel like fear is behind all of
those machinations. On a psychological level, why do you think fear has
such a monumental, dark force in improvisation?
MARK: Because
more people want to be right than happy. “I can't just make a choice...I
must make the right choice, for the scene, for the improv rule, for the
form...blah blah.” Now you're improvising out of obligation and not
inspiration, and that's probably going to suck. Why? Because you are not
coming from a place of joy. "I want to do this...but what if it
messes things up?" How can it mess it up if whatever happens is
supposed to happen?
PAM: It can mess up if it sucks!
If the audience isn't entertained. And that is terrifying.
MARK: But
that's going on the assumption that every scene will be great...and that's a
false assumption.
PAM: Ah. You must continue that
train of thought, if you please.
MARK: At
Annoyance, we used to use the term, " You have to stop caring."
PAM: You're saying we have to
avoid letting sucky improv scenes throw us off our game? Just let go.
MARK: Absolutely.
I used to tell my students that the one thing a great scene and a shitty
scene have in common is that when they are over, they are over and you can't
get them back. So stop worrying. Have the most fun you can in the moment
and move on. Some scenes are going to be bullshit...you can't measure yourself
against anything but the next scene.
Here is where baseball comes
in. You strike out...big deal. The next time you come up it's
totally different. You can be burdened by the worry of the last
strikeout, or you can treat this at bat for what it is, totally fresh, and see
what happens. We worry too much.
PAM: Jeepers, Mr. Sutton.
"Stop caring" is such a huge, fucking, hard thing for improvisers
because deep down most of us need the audience's laughter/approval in order to
fuel the beating of our hearts.
MARK: Here's
the irony: If you care too much about form, your choices, the audience,
some bullshit rule…it takes you out of your pure creative space. So now,
the thing that makes you unique and desirable as a performer - you're creative
fire and inspiration - is being compromised. So in your fervent desire to care,
you've taken away from yourself the only thing that the audience truly cares
about, your playfulness.
PAM: It seems like fear and joy almost
need to work together. I imagine there isn’t much fear for you when you’re performing
these days. But we know how important "following the fear" - or being
most emotionally real and vulnerable - is in improv. All these years in, how do
you personally put yourself in a state of joyful fear before and during a show?
MARK: Well,
I think the fear is always there to some degree. But in time you come to
embrace it. It just means that you care, and that's good. But you
don't care to the point that you let the fear get in your way. How do I
do that? By reminding myself to be proactive. I remind myself that
whatever happens will happen because of choices that I make from inspiration
and not choices that I don't make because of fear of failure.
Now even if the scene or the
show is not that great, it is so proactively, and I can walk away feeling okay.
I never walk away saying, "If I'd only done this or that, it may
have been different." I was proactive, and I made choices. I'm good
with that.
PAM: Moving on to another Del
Close concept, I'm wondering what this quote means to you: "If we treat
each other as if we are geniuses, poets, and artists, we have a better chance
of becoming that on-stage."
MARK: I
suppose it's about respect. Respect each other for your abilities and
points of view. Respect the process. Respect the audience.
One of my big things about improvisers is how lazy they often are.
Either overtly or covertly. This goes to things like showing up on
time, how you get ready for a show, how you dress, etc. That's all about
different levels of respect.
PAM: I know you’ve told it too
many times to count, but just for posterity sake, can you please tell me the
story of how BASSPROV came to be?
MARK: It
was during Screw Puppies. The
format was improv that looked like sketch, meaning that all scenes were blacked
out from the booth. Joe and I came out one night and found ourselves in
two chairs and just started fishing. We liked the characters and
occasionally brought them back, always saying they should have their own show.
Then in 2001, leading up to Chicago Improv Festival, I called [Chicago
Improv Festival Production’s Executive Director] Jonathan
Pitts and told him we were workshopping a show and wanted a slot to try it
out. He gave us a 4am slot in Improv All Night. I immediately
called Joe and told him we had a slot and now must come up with a show. So we
sort of forced our own hand to create it. We did it at 4am to a sold out
house and went from there.
PAM: In an interview
with the Austin Improv Forum, you said about your BASSPROV characters, “The
key to these guys and to the show is that just when you think you've got them
figured out...they surprise you.”
MARK: Yeah,
I enjoyed playing with audience expectation about these guys. Because we,
as a society see so much in black and white and people just aren't like that.
I think Donny and Earl prove that out.
PAM: Personally, I think that
magic and surprise element comes from your high level of reference, and how you
and Joe funnel your own intelligence through these seemingly blue-collar
characters.
MARK: Certainly...because
blue collar doesn't mean stupid.
PAM: Touché.
It's remarkable that you and Joe have maintained such
a strong connection on stage for going on three decades now.
MARK: It's
sort of crazy. We don't see each other as much as in the days of
Annoyance, but the connection is still there.
It's the same with Mick and
me.
PAM: There must have been times
when he bugged the shit out of you. (And visa versa.) But you guys stuck it
out. It seems like your extremely high respect for each other is part of the
glue that sticks you together. I see that in TJ and David too.
MARK: Oh
yeah. We are completely different personalities. I used to joke that
traveling with him is like traveling with an old lady. We have to go to
this place, and he has to have his food a certain way, and stuff like that.
I'm sure he hates my regimented nature.
PAM: In some ways you seem like
two sides of the same coin perhaps. Maybe I'm wrong on that...
MARK: Ha...probably
from a more detached perspective, yes.
PAM: Do you ever get surprised
by something Joe says on stage? Or do you feel like a well-oiled machine at
this point?
Mark and Joe Donny and Earl BASSPROV |
MARK: Oh
yeah. There is the famous Mad Cow story from the Miami Festival some
years ago. Joe decided that, instead of talking about Mad Cow, he was
going to have it. He just kept getting more and more manic, and couldn't stay
on topic, etc. For about two-thirds of the show I did not know what the
hell was going on. And people in the audience who knew us told me after
that they could see Mark getting pissed and not Donny. I was ready to kill him.
Then I finally got it and the audience went nuts.
Then there was Seattle in ‘08
when the normally conservative Donny revealed his Obama t-Shirt. Joe
freaked on that one.
PAM: Because I most enjoy it
when done slowly, mindfully and fully present, can you tell me about the pace
of BASSPROV and why it helps to make such delectable improv?
MARK: The
best note we were ever given about the show was by a brilliant guy named Don Hall.
We did the show in his WNEP
Theater in the beginning, and one night he came backstage and - in his own
Don Hall way – said, "Can I make a suggestion? Shut the fuck up and fish."
We were talking too much. We weren't relaxed. We had to
relax, fish, drink beer, take better care of the mood, and then the words take
care of themselves.
PAM: Fantastic. Do you still get
off on performing BASSPROV? What about the show continues to draw you back in?
MARK: I
just love it. I love the characters, the interplay. I love showing
these guys to the audience, surprising them. And, there's always new
stuff to talk about.
PAM: Awww. I love that you still
love it. Sorry to go all girly on you just then, but it slipped out.
MARK: Ha!
PAM: Now that Joe is back from
getting married in South Africa, when are you next performing?
MARK: Not
until next year [2013]. The shows are fewer now. I travel so much
for Second City, and I have two little kids who need daddy to be home. We
pick our spots more. One big goal next year is to actually do this show
that's set in Indiana, about two guys from Indiana...in Indiana. We've
never done that.
PAM: One more BASSPROV question.
I'm reticent to ask it because I may be about to sound prudish or a buzz-kill
here just by asking the question, but can you explain the significance or
reasoning for drinking beer during your set?
MARK: You
drink beer when you fish. That's really it.
PAM: Have you ever done the show
without beer?
MARK: Yes.
We did a morning show for students at CIF one year, and we drank coffee.
PAM: Hahaha. How did that go?
MARK: It
was fine. We don't "need" the beer...it just makes it more fun.
(That's sounds like the alcoholic handbook right?)
PAM: I should move on... You are
one of the relatively few improvisers I know who is able to make a living off
improv. Is your main, money-making gig Second City BizCo?
MARK: Yeah,
doing corporate workshops, event hosting, large shows. Then also teaching
at Annoyance and some freelance stuff.
PAM: The freelance is
"Power Improv"?
MARK: Some
of it. And I'm doing a series of events now for the National Association of
Orthopedic Surgeons on distracted driving. My friend does PR for them and
hooked me up. And last year I hosted the Chamber of Commerce Awards in
Scranton PA. You know...glamorous stuff like that.
PAM: Wha-? Where do orthopedic
surgeons, distracted driving, and improvisation meet?
MARK: They
co-sponsor an initiative to show kids the danger of distracted driving. They
work with police and the auto industry in getting that message out to teens. We
do the events like a talk show with some sketches, etc.
PAM: Cool. My improv friends and
I constantly struggle with how improviser can make a living through improv.
Suggestions?
MARK: I
think it's really perseverance and marketing. You have to come up with a
program and sell the program. Be specific because business doesn't buy
vague.
PAM: Quite frankly, it makes me
sad that my guiding passion has almost no opportunities to make a sustainable
living. It's a given that you can't make real money performing, right?
MARK: That's
why they are avocations...right. It's a calling.
PAM: What kind of "program"
can an improviser come up with to sell?
MARK: You
have to come up with a program that speaks to business. For instance at
Second City we teach Communication Skills, Presentation Skills...etc., and sell
that to the business angle. But it's all based on improv.
PAM: What sorts of businesses
buy these programs?
MARK: For
Second City, it's across the board. Small, big....huge. Having that
name behind it helps.
I'm also writing .... we'll
see how that turns out.
PAM: You're working on a book
about improv?
MARK: No.
It's a humor book, but not improv.
PAM: I’m looking forward to
reading it. Ok, Mr. Sutton. We've come to the end of our show here.
MARK: Aaawww.
PAM: Thank you so very, very much
for geeking out with me. You definitely were the most slippery of fish that
took months to finally land, but entirely worth the wait.
MARK: Finally...right?
And I want to leave you with one more thing. This was really the
inspiration for all my current teaching about commitment and emotional
connection. And...it's from a Starbuck's coffee cup: "The irony of
commitment is that it's deeply liberating - in work, in play in love. The
act frees you from the tyranny of your internal critic, from the fear that
likes to dress itself up and parade around as rational hesitation. To commit is
to remove your head as the barrier to your life." - Anne Morris
PAM: That's great…and so true. I
find tea bags to be very inspirational.
Photo credit: Quotes Temple |
***
Catch up on past improv geek-a-thons:
Geeking Out with…TJ Jagodowski of TJ and Dave
…with Joe Bill of BASSPROV
…Susan Messing of Messing with a Friend
and many more!
If you like groovy stuff, you might enjoy
The Zen of Improv series,
which contemplates improvisation and
mind-expanding ideas like non-judgment, joy, and curiosity.
The Zen of Improv series,
which contemplates improvisation and
mind-expanding ideas like non-judgment, joy, and curiosity.
Pam Victor is an improv comedian, author, teacher, consultant, and nice person. She is the founder and Head of Happiness of Happier Valley Comedy, the epicenter of improv in Western Mass, where Pam teaches The Zen of Improv to the best students in the world as well as bringing the power of improvisation to the workplace in her "Through Laughter" program. TJ Jagodowski, David Pasquesi, and Pam are the co-authors of "Improvisation at the Speed of Life: The TJ and Dave Book." She lives online at www.pamvictor.com.
Unless you're a meanie, Pam would probably like you.
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